ok i recently had a complete tank crash that killed all but one fish, i know the cause was ammonia. Here is my problem. Its a FW planted tank, and i was told that Bacteria dont colonize Sand as well in FW as they do in SW. And i had an undergravel filter suggested to me which i just wont do. But my main question is Gravel better for Bacteria in a FW tank than Sand? Or does it not really matter? Also which t5s would be better for plants an ATI blue Plus and Antintic with 2 10ks OR Fuji Purples with the 10k bulbs? i cant afford new bulbs so it has to be some configeration of the ones i have which are 2- Fuji Purple, 2-10k, 1 ati blue plus, and two Antinics but i can only use 4 bulbs at once. i dont know what kind half the plants are they just looked cool, i do have Some Hornwort and Anacharis One that is possibily Blyxa aubertii,Dwarf Hairgrass, and the rest will i cant figure out what they are i think one is Anubis but not sure!

I've never relied on the gravel or sand in my FW aquariums for filtration. To me, oversized filters do a much better job. My Rena XP2 is rated for up to 75g and I have it on a moderately stocked 40g. Never had a single problem with it since I set it up. Canister filters work great on FW tanks since nitrates are not a problem (actually WANTED in planted tanks) until they get insanely high. My tank hovers around 10-20 all the time and I've had shrimp and Corys breed in it. Some people even keep them at 40ppm and have to dose to get it up that high!

The plants you have on your list are low light except the Dwarf Hairgrass. That's a bit higher and would love some CO2 supplementation (SeaChem Flourish Excel works great).

For theo bulb selection, I'd say a toss up between the Actinic Plus and the Fiji Purple. I'm having problems finding a spectrum chart for the Fiji Purples. IF you do buy new bulbs, I'd recommend a couple 5500k-6700k bulbs. That will balance out the super white of the 10,000k's. That's what I run on my tanks (except I do run one bulb in the 8500k range, it makes anything red or yellow POP!).

I am baffled by your tank crash.  A well planted established tank should NOT have ammonia of all things.  Ammonia being the simplest form of Nitrogen (N) is readily consumed by plants and many algae.  If your ammonia was high then the plants were not doing their job or you did not have enough plants based on your animal load. 

But my main question is Gravel better for Bacteria in a FW tank than Sand? 
In a non-planted FW tank, gravel in  my opinion would be better. Gravel in a planted tank is OK, but lately I have been preferring the sand (over soil).  If you do use gravel, use a very fine gravel.

I know people who have had sand substrate tanks set up for years with no problems. However, all these tanks also had some type of soil (potting, top, etc) under the sand. I currently have several, but they have only been set up a couple months. Most of my planted tanks are without any filtration - bacteria grows in all parts of any aquarium, but it is not as much as an issue as it is with non-planted tanks.

I also grow hair grass like crazy with no CO2. (sand substrate over soil)

How about some details.

What is the tank size?

How long was the tank set up without problems.  Did it have excellent plant growth and then the plants stopped growing for some reason.  Did you have fast growing plants that you need to trim and pull often (these are signs of a healthy planted tank)

As for your lighting, are these high output T5's or standard T5's. You should try to shoot for 2 watts of standard fluorescent per gallon.  High outputs are much more intense, so you can do with less.

Was the tank overstocked with fish/inverts?

Planted tanks can crash for many reasons.  I have had gravel only tanks crash. Undergravel filters are too oxygen rich for a planted tank  - however, I  have heard of some that were successful.  Since you are starting over, you may want to try some of the MANY methods to set up a planted tank.

If you are interested in a low-tech tank, me and several others here can help you out with a soil based tank.  There may be some high-tech people here too. Just let us know!

--Tim

tames said :

I am baffled by your tank crash.  A well planted established tank should NOT have ammonia of all things.  Ammonia being the simplest form of Nitrogen (N) is readily consumed by plants and many algae.  If your ammonia was high then the plants were not doing their job or you did not have enough plants based on your animal load. 

But my main question is Gravel better for Bacteria in a FW tank than Sand? 
In a non-planted FW tank, gravel in  my opinion would be better. Gravel in a planted tank is OK, but lately I have been preferring the sand (over soil).  If you do use gravel, use a very fine gravel.

I know people who have had sand substrate tanks set up for years with no problems. However, all these tanks also had some type of soil (potting, top, etc) under the sand. I currently have several, but they have only been set up a couple months. Most of my planted tanks are without any filtration - bacteria grows in all parts of any aquarium, but it is not as much as an issue as it is with non-planted tanks.

I also grow hair grass like crazy with no CO2. (sand substrate over soil)

How about some details.

What is the tank size?

How long was the tank set up without problems.  Did it have excellent plant growth and then the plants stopped growing for some reason.  Did you have fast growing plants that you need to trim and pull often (these are signs of a healthy planted tank)

As for your lighting, are these high output T5's or standard T5's. You should try to shoot for 2 watts of standard fluorescent per gallon.  High outputs are much more intense, so you can do with less.

Was the tank overstocked with fish/inverts?

Planted tanks can crash for many reasons.  I have had gravel only tanks crash. Undergravel filters are too oxygen rich for a planted tank  - however, I  have heard of some that were successful.  Since you are starting over, you may want to try some of the MANY methods to set up a planted tank.

If you are interested in a low-tech tank, me and several others here can help you out with a soil based tank.  There may be some high-tech people here too. Just let us know!

--Tim

it was up for about a month to a month and a half. the plants are growing fine, and algae is growing like wild fire!!!! so much algae in fact that i have to scrap the front glass with a razor just to see in the tank. But on the kit at the local pet shop ammonia was off the charts.(this simple test is about all i trust them to do)

The lights are 4x54 watts it was a SW unit. 3.9 watts per gallon. i do believe that it is a HO unit its currant usa(i was told on RC with the right bulbs i could even keep sps and lps under it)

It has a Hob filter that is rated for a 40 to 60g tank(i am planning another on it before anymore fish go in it) it also has a bubble wand on the back of the tank. and a Hydor number 3 pointed toward the top for surface agaitation.

As far as being overstocked ya prolly a lil on the heavy side. I had 2 VERY small fan tail goldfish(about 1 inch each) 1 comet that was maybe 2 inches, 3 rosy reds athat were about 1 inch each, 2 koi that were about 3 or 4 inchs 2 chinese algae eaters(less than an inch each) 2 small placos maybe 2 inches each max 1 Large fantail gold fish that was about 5 inchs and a bunch of rams horn snails.

Even though the test at the pet store said it was high ammonia i dont really believe it, i think maybe it was temp that did them in. the t5s keep the tank a BIT to warm for goldfish(spike up to 85F at the highest) but who knows!

Burks said :

For theo bulb selection, I'd say a toss up between the Actinic Plus and the Fiji Purple. I'm having problems finding a spectrum chart for the Fiji Purples.

They are a heavy mix of blue and pink according to the site i ordered them from. KZ Fiji Purple 704 par rating if that helps any!

Also the algae thats growing or at least some of it looks like the big floating masses of moss you see in ponds. for that matter the tank kinda smells like a pond to be quit honest. looks like i should get me some Blue gills. lol

I can see several issues.  Before we go into all that, what is your intention with the new setup.  Do you want a planted tank or not this time around?  Was this your first tank setup?

Your substrate was not your problem with the ammonia. Your goldfish and koi where most likely the problem, and you did not let your tank cycle. Your lighting is very high, but can be done if done gradually - more to talk about there.

Goldfish/Koi are not good fish for planted tanks.  They are generally herbavores and will eat many types of plants.  This is not to say it is impossible, I have seen planted goldfish tanks, but you have to do careful planning on your plant choices.  So if goldfish/koi is what you want, then non-planted is best.

It is best not to mix goldfish with tropicals.

You do not want a lot of surface agitation in planted tanks.  No bubble wands, etc.  This allows the existing CO2 in the tank to escape too fast. The plants need the CO2. I generally don't use filters, but cannister filters are the best, internal pump/filters are good, HOB's are OK.

Non-Planted
In an non-planted tank, bacteria is your best friend. You must let your filters and tank cycle at least 30 days before adding a stock of fish.  This gives the tank a chance to balance and bacteria to grow.  You can put a few smaller fish in after a couple days of setup to help the bacteria get started.  Ammonia is what you want in a very new tank, but your fish stock needs to be very low.  In a non-planted tank, I would use gravel.

Planted
There are MANY, MANY methods in setting up planted tanks.  Bacteria is helpful, but not  your best friend in a planted tank. Your plants should be consuming the ammonia. After planting, I add snails (I like the natural tank). I wait two weeks to give the plants a chance to start growing - when I do see growth, then I add some fish.

I see you live in Bryan. Send me a private message, and maybe we can connect and talk about some choices.

--Tim

Goldfish / koi are very heavy feeders, and if they're munching on the plants as well as the food you give them, they acted like little waste-producing factories. If too many went into the tank too fast, I'd agree that the tank wasn't established enough to handle that load.

tames said :

I can see several issues.  Before we go into all that, what is your intention with the new setup.  Do you want a planted tank or not this time around?  Was this your first tank setup?

Your substrate was not your problem with the ammonia. Your goldfish and koi where most likely the problem, and you did not let your tank cycle. Your lighting is very high, but can be done if done gradually - more to talk about there.

Goldfish/Koi are not good fish for planted tanks.  They are generally herbavores and will eat many types of plants.  This is not to say it is impossible, I have seen planted goldfish tanks, but you have to do careful planning on your plant choices.  So if goldfish/koi is what you want, then non-planted is best.

It is best not to mix goldfish with tropicals.

You do not want a lot of surface agitation in planted tanks.  No bubble wands, etc.  This allows the existing CO2 in the tank to escape too fast. The plants need the CO2. I generally don't use filters, but cannister filters are the best, internal pump/filters are good, HOB's are OK.

 

Non-Planted
In an non-planted tank, bacteria is your best friend. You must let your filters and tank cycle at least 30 days before adding a stock of fish.  This gives the tank a chance to balance and bacteria to grow.  You can put a few smaller fish in after a couple days of setup to help the bacteria get started.  Ammonia is what you want in a very new tank, but your fish stock needs to be very low.  In a non-planted tank, I would use gravel.

Planted
There are MANY, MANY methods in setting up planted tanks.  Bacteria is helpful, but not  your best friend in a planted tank. Your plants should be consuming the ammonia. After planting, I add snails (I like the natural tank). I wait two weeks to give the plants a chance to start growing - when I do see growth, then I add some fish.

I see you live in Bryan. Send me a private message, and maybe we can connect and talk about some choices.

--Tim

 

 

 

 

yes i want it planted and no not my first tank by far! (the fish were not my choice they were the girlfriends and i learned long ago let her do what she wants and watch the fish die,her cry,and repeat) i have re claimed the tank and this time around it will be for MY fish and MY choices so no worries on the super heavy stocking. and NO it will not be a goldfish/koi tank!

tames said :

I

You do not want a lot of surface agitation in planted tanks.  No bubble wands, etc.  This allows the existing CO2 in the tank to escape too fast. The plants need the CO2. I generally don't use filters, but cannister filters are the best, internal pump/filters are good, HOB's are OK.

I see you live in Bryan. Send me a private message, and maybe we can connect and talk about some choices.

--Tim

  

 

I'd like to see as much discussion as you two are comfortable with happen here, so we can all benefit!

For what it is worth, the soil/sand tank I have up(75g with Natives) is ROCKING in the plant growth department, and I only have one regular old tube light going at the moment.  My skinny val I got from Trilby is exploding in there, and the anacharis, Lace Java Fern and regular val are also growing well.  I have pix of it up in the Coldwater section of the forum.

The plants in my 55g(tropicals) with an undergravel and bubble wand, and a light that is a couple years old, are also growing, but not as fast as in the soil/sand tank.  I'm going to switch that one to soil/sand as soon as I quit getting distracted by other projects.  

Part of my reason for trying sand/soil is that I was hoping it would promote plant growth, as I love planted tanks.  The other reason is I've realized I just really like the look of it, it looks more natural to me.

There's my 45 cents worth!