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Toledo Reef Aquarium Club Forum
 
:: Home » Aquarium Talk with King Diamond » Coil Denitrator???
Author Messages
zeeman


Posts : 68
Location : Toledo, Ohio
Posted : 12/2/2007 9:01:23 PM  

Hi All,...

Wondering if anyone is using or thier opinion on Coil Denitrators.  Are they worth it??  Do they work??  I see several DIY coil denitrators on the web.  Like:

http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/blank/bldondiydenitratornew.htm

King Diamond -  If you have a chance...  Please let me know what you think too!! 

The DIY denitrator I posted the link to looks pretty easy to make and the concept on nitrates appears to be valid.  I have had a nitrate issue with my tank sence day 1. I think its a combanation of minor issues in my water supply and tank load and other things.. I have not been able to lower my nitrates lower than 20ppm.  40ppm is the norm for my tank.  even with water changes... Fish don't seem to mind it but my corals will never grow the way I want then to..  If it works,  the coil denitrator would solve my issue....

Before I go thru the process of adding yet another pc of equipment to my tank... Please let me know what you all think!! 

Briney Dave

Moderator
Posts : 1099
Location : N/A
Posted : 12/3/2007 7:39:21 AM  

I would much rather see you address the problem rather than try to mop up after it for the rest of the tank's life. 

Your numbers are way too high and you are going to loose both coral and fish if you don't get these under control.

First; Water changes; two 10% changes a week until the numbers are down around 10-15

you can live fine with that level but closer to trace would be nice.

second look for dead spots or other places where goo is piling up in the tank.  I am guessing that you have a mini compost pile somewhere in the tank to have numbers that high

what foods are you feeding your fish?

flakes can be a bad source of excess nutrients as can over feeding

Third: you need to create a nutrient sink: a refu is the best way to do this (most common any way) it does not need to be as involved as other folks are but you do need one.

Fourth: what is the ratio of live rock to water volume and what are you using for substrate?

Aquatic Aquaman

Moderator

Posts : 3555
Location : Ann Arbor, Mi
Posted : 12/3/2007 9:17:02 AM  

If you do have a sump one other thing you could try that worked for me when I had 10 ppms of Nitrates that I got it down to a trace was use some Kent Nitrate sponge.  You just put it in a filter sock and let the water run through it.  I lowered my nitrates down to trace when I had an issue.

What dave stated above is a good practice as well.  But I would do a 10% water change every 3 - 4 days for the next month or more if you want to get things under control.

What kind of water are you using?

With your nitrates that high are all your fish accounted for and how's your ammonia levels? 

Toledo Reef Aquarium Club Web Administrator
zeeman


Posts : 68
Location : Toledo, Ohio
Posted : 12/3/2007 8:22:38 PM  

Hey,  thanks for the posts.  I do appreciate all your concern about my tank and its well being.  1 year ago I would be shocked at the nitrate levels too...  but my fish and soft corals are doing fine.  Even growing...   but...  20-40ppm nitrates is an issue... Nitrite and Ammonia levels are at trace amounts.  PLENTY of water movement.  PH and hardness is superb... I do overfeed a bit...  but honestly... who doesn't??  I could do more water changes...but again... I'm sure some others could say that too...  With all that said:

WHAT ABOUT THE COIL DENITRATOR?  Anyone using one?  What do you think of the concept??  Growing nitrate eating bactetia. What about putting the o2 depleted water back in the tank?  I thought that was kind of odd....    (Not looking for a lecture on what you think of my tank,....or multiple other questions.. just wanted to start a decussion on coil denitrators...)  

Thought I would throw in a few picts so everyone doesn't think  my fish are swimming around half dead...with algea growing all over it... slumped over brown corals...bearly hanging on....


 

 


 

 

 

Aquatic Aquaman

Moderator

Posts : 3555
Location : Ann Arbor, Mi
Posted : 12/4/2007 9:39:21 AM  

Hey Tom,

   Sorry for the bombardment of questions we thought you were trying to have a conversation on how to help with nitrates in your tank and not specifically talk about the Coil Denitrator as a product, and I don't think anyone was accusing you of having a tank full of dead fish and coral.  We just want what you want and that is for your marine animals to be healthy and have long lives.

The pictures look great by the way!

Getting back on topic I think this is a very excellent post and subject to start a debate on with Denitrification.  I had attempted to start a post previously on a similar topic.  But it really didn't go anywhere.

When I was at MACNA this year there was a company that was actually selling Coil Denitrators Tubes.  I had a about a 30 min discussion with they guy.  Basically the Coil Denitrators has the same functionality as and works similar to a Remote Deep Sand bed.  The Coil Denitrator is a new concept and if mis handled in the slightest bit can really cause a major problem in our tanks as the article even stated.  It seem all to dangerous to me. 

The article states "The name, “Coil Denitrator” is a misnomer in that it should be called a Tower Denitrator due to the “action” taking place on the surface area of the bio materials inserted within the coils during construction. "

This could easily turn into the Tower of Death..  Futher in that article it states that if the flow is slightly to much that it could turn the Coil Denitrator into a "nitrite production", to slow it could possibility produce hydrogen sulfides. I think its a great idea but, I would have to agree with what Dave initially stated which is basically you're probably better off on trying to correct it naturally then purchase something else that could make problems worse.

Years ago there was another concept introduced to reduce nitrates in your Home Aquariums that I actually tried.  My very first tank was rich in Nitrates and Phosphates, and I read an article that someone had posted saying dosing vodka in your home aquarium would reduce the levels of Nitrates.

What was suppose to happen as the article described was that when you first dose with vodka your aquarium would have a bacteria bloom and go cloudy.  Which it did.  This in turn made my protien skimmer go crazy.  After about 24 hours the cloudyness calm down and my protein skimmer was back to normal so I though wow it actually worked.  I check my parameters and saw my nitrates going lower.  So I dosed my tank every week for the next year.  I stopped because the Nitrates had come back and were even higher then they were when I started dosing.  After a while of dosing my water would no longer turn cloudy nor would my skimmer go crazy.  I eventually did break down and purchase Kent Nitrate sponges which did reduce my Nitrates from 15ppm to about 5ppm.  Then a few water changes later I was down to 0 nitrates.

For those of you interested in the Vodka information I believe Eric Borneman wrote an excellent article about it in ReefKeeping Magazine.

http://reefkeeping.net/issues/2004-11/eb/feature/index.php

Corey gave a presentation on this a few months back on Remote Deep Sand beds and there use in the denitrification process.  I think the presentation can be found on our website under the articles/videos section.  This method is a more natural process and a tried and true process that has been backed by a lot of well known hobbyist and scientist.  If I was going to purchase something I would rather spend 10$ on a tried an true method then a new concept method that stakes a risky result.

My two cents!  I welcome the constructive debate though!

Great post Zeeman!

Toledo Reef Aquarium Club Web Administrator
KrazeKajin

Moderator

Posts : 441
Location : Toledo, Oh
Posted : 12/4/2007 9:49:19 AM  
Perhaps one of the best nitrate reducers other than a good refugium would be that Deep sand bed in a five gallon bucket that Corey talked about in one of our meetings. I do not have any info on the coil nitrate reducers, so I can not be of any assistance there.

As far as a tank consistently having nitrates in excess of 20ppm, that is a problem. I have a 29g tank that I know I overfeed, but my nitrates usually are at 0. However, this is because I finally found the reason. I run a canister filter and I was finding that my canister filter was being clogged and basically becoming a nitrate factory. Also, I had crushed coral as a substrate and that was another problem. I since put a very small in tank refugium and started really rinsing out my canister filter and since then I have not had any problems.

winland


Posts : 167
Location : Tiffin, OH
Posted : 12/4/2007 10:35:36 AM  

I built a coil denitrator last spring and put it on my 125g reef system.   At the time my nitrates were also running at 40ppm.  I found it to be USELESS.  Do not waste your time, money and effort.  I would purchase a new or used denitrifier.  Look around on this or some of the many other reef forum for a used Midwest sulfur denitrifier or one of the other manufacturers. 

I have found out there there is nothing cheap or quick about getting rid of nitrates.  Doing lots of water changes can get expensive with the cost of a good salt and making lots of good RO/DI water.  VERY IMPORTANT... test your water before you add salt and test your water after you mix the salt.  One of the best investments I ever made was a TDS in-line meter on my RO/DI unit.  I live in farm country and there must be lots of bad stuff in the ground water.  My well has lots of nitrates in it.  I have to change my DI resin about every 4 weeks to keep my TDS below 5.   Early on, before my TDS meter, I was doing lots of water changes to try and lower my nitrates.  I later found out, after purchasing the TDS meter, that I was actually just adding more and more nitrates to the tank with all of my water changes.  Again test your frest water for TDS and then nitrates prior to adding any salt. 

If you want a DIY project, you can build a media reactor and layer some sulfer pellets and some Seachem Matrix or Seachem De Nitrate  http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html

or daisy chain a couple of Two Little Fishies phospate reactors together and add sulfur to one and Matrix, De Nitrate or ARM to the other and slow drip into your sump.

Hope some of this helps and hope nothing I have suggested will hurt.

winland

 

Aquatic Aquaman

Moderator

Posts : 3555
Location : Ann Arbor, Mi
Posted : 12/4/2007 11:17:42 AM  
winland said :

 I have to change my DI resin about every 4 weeks to keep my TDS below 5.  


How much does it cost you a month to change your DI resin to keep your TDS below 5?

Toledo Reef Aquarium Club Web Administrator
winland


Posts : 167
Location : Tiffin, OH
Posted : 12/4/2007 12:21:22 PM  

Aquatic Aquaman said :
winland said :

 I have to change my DI resin about every 4 weeks to keep my TDS below 5.  


How much does it cost you a month to change your DI resin to keep your TDS below 5?

I purchased a cubic foot of Non-color changing DI resin.  That works out to about $8 worth of resin per month.  But I have real clean water going into my reef tank and also my morning coffee and my ice cubes in my gin&tonic. 

Fish E

Moderator

Posts : 1572
Location : Toledo, OH
Posted : 12/4/2007 12:27:45 PM  

I have heard coil denitrators are difficult to fine tune and just an overall pain. Doesn't anyone want to try the remote deep sand bed?

RDSB

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