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:: Home » Guppy Galore » Possible Endler crosses & unrelated deformity question
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pundam

Moderator

Posts : 1072
Location : Toledo
Posted : 4/3/2008 9:53:35 AM  

So the first 3 babies spawned in my tank are big enough now to really see their coloring.
The two males have body coloring that looks like a cross between a neon tetra and an endler. They also have much smaller tails than the other males, and the coloring of the tails on both is an almost geometric pattern(but different patterns on each male) that I haven't seen in any of the guppy pages I've been perusing online.  I'm wondering what the odds are of the female having been in with endlers prior to my getting her.

If they are indeed already endler-crosses, then doesn't  that sort of defeats the purpose of my keeping the soon-to-be-incoming endlers in a separate tank? 

A couple of the one month old fry are showing a black/dark grey coloring from mid-body all the way through the tail, almost like one of those bi-colored angels. 

Another odd thing about all three of the several month old fry-  their bodies are bent almost like a "v".  What is that deformity about? The one month old fry(5 or 6 of them made it) do not have this, nor do the two I found in the quarantine tank last week.

Mary I've got a mind like a steel....Ohh! Shiny! ::::wanders off::::
crazzbaby

Posts : 128
Location : Sandusky ohio
Posted : 4/3/2008 12:09:07 PM  

Now this is something I do know about.... the bent "v" is a condition called fish tuberculosis... your fish parents are carriers.... they gave it to the fry... and it will get worse... the bent fish will have short lived lives... I had this in my guppies when I had my fresh water tank.... I got fish from a friends tank and soon enough the whole tank pretty much had it....its sad... but I'm pretty sure that the condition comes from poor water conditions....watch out tho.... humans can contract this condition... you'll get a rash that will NEVER go away... only with strong antibiotics.... I have a gross rash on the palm of my hand and I blame it on the freshwater I had.... I've had it for a year... and several antibiotics later I still have it.... so Now I have to where gloves when working in my salt tank..... but there is little info on the net.... look up fish tuberculosis... fish t.b..... or bent spine in fish.... I hope when you read the info on this...it doesn't make you quit like I did.... I dumped my tank and sold it.... they were my babies... and man did I have some beautiful gups. *sob*

Fish are friends not food...
crazzbaby

Posts : 128
Location : Sandusky ohio
Posted : 4/3/2008 12:14:21 PM  

http://www.flippersandfins.net/FishTankGranuloma.htm

is a good article on human virus of fish t.b.

Fish are friends not food...
pundam

Moderator

Posts : 1072
Location : Toledo
Posted : 4/3/2008 2:12:51 PM  

Well this is disturbing to say the least. 

In searching fish TB I keep finding this list of symptoms: Symptoms include the following:

  • loss of appetite
  • fish remains in seclusion and out of site
  • rapid breathing (respiration)
  • eyes appear to be cloudy or "popping out"
  • fish lies on its side near bottom of aquarium
  • stomach of fish appears to be sunken
  • whittish blotches on exterior
  • degraded and frayed fins

My fish have had this their whole lives(I think it was October or November when I got the parents & the fry arrived literally within days). They are active, always out in the open, eat well and other than the odd shape are in beautiful shape.  The one does have some fraying in the tail, but that's the only other symptom I have.

Thanks for the info, I'm off to do more searching.

Mary I've got a mind like a steel....Ohh! Shiny! ::::wanders off::::
pundam

Moderator

Posts : 1072
Location : Toledo
Posted : 4/3/2008 2:45:35 PM  

I've just spent about 45 min searching, and although I didn't find many pix of fish TB, those I saw don't look like my fish. I also keep coming up with the same list of symptoms as above, which also don't really fit.

It's looking as if my little ones suffered from a vitamin deficiency. 

This fish TB gives me one more thing to be paranoid about.  I'm a MRSA survivor from back when there was only one antibiotic that the strain I had was not resistant to. I was allergic to it so spent a week in quarantine getting vancomyacin(sp?) through an I)V.

Infections make me nervous now.

Mary I've got a mind like a steel....Ohh! Shiny! ::::wanders off::::
crazzbaby

Posts : 128
Location : Sandusky ohio
Posted : 4/3/2008 3:01:57 PM  

i would keep digging around try looking it up by the scientific name.... I can't find the articles that I had read sometime back.... but I remember it was a pond website..... but any ways what I do know is it is highly contagious... and even tho everyone looks fine it is bacterial... the fish turn sick from the inside out ... I tried everything in my power but nothing helped...and the more I tried the faster it spread.... personally sounds like you got a bad batch of fish... and where ever you may have gotten them... I wouldn't go there anymore... I'm sure their tanks are infected and probably wont care to hear or fix the disease that they are spreading.... I said something to a LFS owner and he looked at me stupid.... like what is that..never heard of it... but I guess its common... and from my understanding..do what you will... but to completely get rid of this disease... not going to want to hear this..... but your gonna have to bleach out the tank and belongings that are in it....I thought I could beat it... tried to thoroughly clean and replace what ever I could with out starting completely over.... nope it came back with the new batch of fish... took 2 months but i did come back.... but I am know how this feels so I will keep looking and posting if i find anything....and curious to see what we find... maybe we could help someone in the future with the same problem and I totally feel your pain on this one...

 

Fish are friends not food...
crazzbaby

Posts : 128
Location : Sandusky ohio
Posted : 4/3/2008 3:07:21 PM  

I dunno.... what the chances of more than one fishy having a vitamin def.

Fish are friends not food...
crazzbaby

Posts : 128
Location : Sandusky ohio
Posted : 4/3/2008 3:34:22 PM  

Tuberculosis
This disease kills more fishes than is realized because the effects are generally slow and fishes do not waste as do birds and mammals; they stay plump until they die. The germ, called mycobacterium piscium, has been found in many parts of guppies, even in the eyes. You are not likely to know if your guppies have the disease even when you find them dead. A bacteriologist can make the determination for you.

...........................................................................................................................

I am very behind in reading the digest, but I had a problem with fish TB
and was successful in treating it.

Conventional add to water medications will not affect TB because it is an
internal problem and as we know freshwater fish rarely take water into
their bodies.  The problem becomes how to get an anti biotic into their
system.

If the fish is still eating using a flake food with anti bacterial
medication in it will work.  I am only aware of Tetra having this product.
Alternately you could soak food in eurthomycin (sp?).

I had a large anglefish which had TB and was severly bloating.  My
girlfriend works at a vet clinic and so she got some eurthomycin and
injected the fish with it.  The fish compeltely recovered and has been
with us for about 6 months or more and is doing well.

The injection will work for larger fish which you can hold and is probably
better than using anti biotic food.

If you have any more questions let me know and I can try and find out
more, but this is a case where while difficult to cure it is possible.

...................................................................................................

Signs: Fish with tuberculosis usually show a loss of appetite, pale skin color, emaciation, lethargy, skin ulcers, and general poor health. The disease may progress slowly leading to skeletal deformities and eventually death. Post mortem exam will reveal small white nodules in the internal organs.

Cause: Mycobacterium

Transmission: The bacteria can be transmitted through the water from open ulcers, feces of infected fish, or through the consumption of infected, dead, or dying fish in the tank.

Predisposing factors: This disease is not highly contagious, however, it is often associated with poorly kept or dirty tanks with poor water quality. Any dead fish should quickly be removed and disposed of. Diseased live fish should be removed to a treatment tank.

Fish with chronic tuberculosis resulting in curvature of the spine

Treatment: The antibiotics kanamycin or erythromycin are sometimes successful. All infected fish should be handled with care to prevent transmission to humans through open wounds or cuts....................................................................................

 

 

 

 

Fish are friends not food...
crazzbaby

Posts : 128
Location : Sandusky ohio
Posted : 4/3/2008 3:41:35 PM  

Synonyms: Fish tuberculosis, piscine tuberculosis, acid-fast disease, granuloma disease.

Mycobacteriosis is worldwide in distribution.  All fish species should be considered susceptible.  Some are more susceptible than others, like gouramis, neon tetras, discus and labyrinth air breathers.

Clinical Signs:

Mycobacteriosis is a chronic progressive disease.  It may take years for it to develop into a clinically apparent illness.  Some signs to look out for include: Lethargy, anorexia, fin and scale loss, exopthalmia, emaciation, skin inflamation and ulceration, edema, peritonitis and nodules in muscles that may deform the fish.

Examinations usually reveal gray or white nodules in the liver, kidney, heart or spleen.  There also may be skeletal deformities.  Diagnosis is usually based on clinical signs and the presence of acid fast bacteria in tissue sections.

Mycobacteria are gram-positive, pleomorphic rods that are acid-fast and nonmotile.  They form cream-colored to yellow colonies on solid media.   It is suggested that transmission of this disease may be caused by contaminated food.

infection rates can be quite high in contaminated freshwater tropical fish production facilities.  The aquatic environment is considered the reservoir.  Mycobacterium marinum has been cultured from swimming pools, beaches, natural streams, estuaries, tropical fish tanks and city tap water.  Human epidemics of granulomatous skin disease have occurred from swimming in infected water.  This mode of human infection is much more common than infection from exposure to infected tropical fish tanks.  This disease will usually attack a sore or abrasion and be apparent about 2-3 weeks after exposure.

Treatment and Control:

Kanamycin + Vitamin B-6 for 30 days is the most effective treatment that we know of for tuberculosis.  The fish should be quarantined during treatment time.  Liquid baby vitamins found at your local pharmacy are a good source of vitamin B-6.  One drop per every 5 gallons of aquarium water is sufficient.   Replace the vitamins according to how much water is changed in the tank during treatment time.

Overcrowding and poor water quality are usually the cause of this disease.

Be careful, this disease may spread to humans.

Fish are friends not food...
crazzbaby

Posts : 128
Location : Sandusky ohio
Posted : 4/3/2008 3:47:21 PM  

Tuberculosis is one bacteria that is hard to fight. I have lost a number of fish to this gram- positive bacteria. Oozing, cheesy open sores on a few goldfish, many danios, 2 white cloud mountain minnows, and a rosy red minnow eventually killed those fish during different years, in different tanks. Fish TB starts with little white balls in the body that may be seen in more "see-through" fish. As it grows, the fish appears to become obese with abnormal bulges, often just on one side. Eventually, the bacteria breaks the body wall and kills the fish. Larger fish, like goldfish, may survive open sores that look like infected red, cheesy boils for many months whereas all my small fish died as soon as they ruptured. Also, commonly small fish like danios and white clouds that were born normal developed kinked spines from TB as they aged and the TB set in. Tuberculosis apparently can be in a fish for years without any harm. If the fish is stressed in any way, the TB may become active. These carriers of TB who look perfectly healthy can spread it to the other fish even if they themselves are not yet or ever ill which is even possible. Older fish are prone to infections. Tuberculosis is sometimes killed using tetracyclines or sulfonamides. It is virtually incurable and causes cursing from normally polite aquarists. I failed to control an outbreak in 12/99 in my tanks (that were all exposed in the early 1990's) with minocycline (gram-negative anyway), erythromycin, or tetracycline. The first two were as pills in the water but the last was a medicated food. By 12/30/99, four goldfish had died. TB wiped out my goldfish tank. Such tanks should be bleached to kill the TB before being used for other fish.

One person says minocycline (which I mentioned, sold as Maracyn II by Mardel) is supposed to be effective against TB in some cases. He also mentions trying kanamycin. I am not sure which product that is in. As of today (7/04), I still lose a danio, white cloud, and rarely other fish to TB almost every few months. My pond goldfish have never shown signs of it except for a few possible instances (not sure) but my aquarium goldfish were killed off years ago (their tank now houses other types of fish).

Fish tuberculosis is a different species than human tuberculosis. It is said to be possible to get fish tuberculosis if you have open wounds in an aquarium so many people use gloves. I have never bothered with gloves, even when I have cuts and have yet to develop any tuberculosis-like signs. I do however wash my hands with soap and hot water thoroughly before putting them into any tank (to remove hand lotion, bad bacteria, etc. that might bother the fish) and after taking them out of any tank (to protect myself and my other animals and tanks). I wash between tanks as well to prevent spreading anything.

.......................................................................................................

2nd March 2003

Having recently set up an aquarium again after a lapse of several years, I have been unfortunate enough to acquire a fairy severe case of Fish Tuberculosis in the tank. This triggered me to write down here exactly what I do know of the disease and what the various books I possess say about it. There seems to be little on the www other than anecdotal evidence.

I would stress that I am no expert: this is a compilation of information from various sources.

Fish tuberculosis is not the same as the human disease of the same name. However it is possibly the most common disease amongst aquaria fish. It is a high probability than anyone who has kept a range of tropical fish for any length of time will have experienced it. However - it is also quite unlikely that they will have realised this, for the disease is usually not virulent, is not usually highly contagious and does not have sudden and drastic effects.

However: in certain cases the disease can occur epidemically and then great losses will occur. But more usually an infected fish may die years after it initially gets infected. Often the fish shows no external symptoms and the death is usually one of those unexplained death that all aquarists have experienced amongst their pets.

Fish TB, quite apart from being about the most common disease and about the hardest to diagnose, is also about the hardest to cure.

This page is written in part from my own experience and in part from the books I have. I have quoted chunks and information from Diseases of Fishes, by C van Duijn Jr, published by Iliffe Books Ltd. in 1956. The book contains a lot of highly technical information including photographs of specimens and several photomicrographs of the tubercles. Much of the book's information is highly technical and has not been paraphrased here.

Another book which is informative is 'Aquarium Care' by Gunther Sterba, published in Britain in 1967 by Studio Vista Ltd.

These are old books and hopefully more up-to-date information exists. Nevertheless I hope the information here proves useful to other aquarists. If I am in error on anything, or you have information to add to what is here, please contact me.

 

What is fish TB?

Fish Tuberculosis is a bacterial disease. Sterba says that it is very common and he claims that 25-30 per cent of aquarium fish may be infected. The disease, says Sterba, is most prevalent in overstocked community tanks. This he says is because:

  • The majority of infected fish show no symptoms.
  • Hitherto (1967) every method of treatment has proved unsuccessful.


Several different bacteria may cause it, all are members of the Mycobacterium genus:

  • Mycobacterium piscium
  • Mycobacterium platypoecilis
  • Mycobacterium anabanti
  • Mycobacterium fortuitum
  • Mycobacterium salmoniphilum
  • Mycobacterium marinum


The above list is not exhaustive! If you search the www, you will find a lot about mycobacterium marinum - which appears to be the most studied cause, but probably not the commonest. Sea fish are commercially more valuable than pet fish and the fish-farm industry can support a lot of research into diseases.

Clearly you need to be a bacteriologist to properly study the infection! But the bacteria that cause fish TB only cause TB in cold-blooded animals. Human tubercle bacteria are not pathogenic for fishes.

 

What are the symptoms?

Exactly what symptoms appear depend on the affected species (and presumably on the bacterium). In the early stages of the disease, no symptoms whatsoever are apparent and, even in the later stages, often the only way to diagnose the disease is by dissection and microscopic examination of the internal organs (especially the intestines, liver and kidneys), where tuberculous cysts may be found.

All the bacteria of the genus Myobacterium are acid-alcohol fast, this is to say that the bacteria, after having been stained with a phenol solution of fuchsine, retain this stain on treatment with a dilute mineral acid and ethanol. Clearly such tests are not for the usual amateur aquarist!

The tubercles are formed initially in the internal organs and appear as small, dirty grey knots, often containing necrotic tissue of blackish colour. These tubercles may have very different sizes and, especially in small fish, may only be found with the aid of a microscope. Normal tissue is pushed aside by the growing tubercles and if these tubercles grow near or into a blood vessel the circulation can be hindered and sometimes bleeding can occur.

The infection may also spread to the skeleton and then deformities may result, such as crooked spine, deformed cheeks and damaged fin-rays.

Clearly such deformities weaken the fish which will die as soon as the damage gets too severe. However the more delicate species may die an an early stage, before any visible symptoms appear. The more robust specimens, particularly if their general health is good, can withstand the disease much longer and will only die when some of the visible symptoms occur.

There is a huge range of visible symptoms, most of which are not specifically diagnostic of fish TB as they can also occur with other diseases. So there is an extremely good chance of fish TB being incorrectly diagnosed as something else entirely - which would indicate that fish TB is likely to be far commoner than most books (and fish dealers!) would admit. Although Sterba's book was written in the 60s, maybe his pessimistic-seeming "25-30% of fish are infected" is not as pessimistic as it might seem!

Symptoms can include:

  • Loss of appetite
  • Progressive thinness
  • Sluggish movement
  • Folded fins
  • Eye protrusion
  • Dark coloration and granular appearance of the cornea (this is the first sign in Angelfish).
  • Skeletal deformity
  • Hanging at the surface
  • Skin defects, including blood spots and open wounds that may ulcerate
  • Black spots, or overall dark coloration (in Cichlids particularly).
  • Fin rot, characterised by the outer rays falling out.
  • Scales loosening and falling out
  • General swelling and scale protrusion (as in Dropsy)

 

How are fish infected?

Sterba says that infection may be by every conceivable route. Bacilli may be in the faeces, scraps of skin or burst abscesses and can be ingested by healthy fish. If infected fish die and are eaten by others (as we have all seen, on occasion, in a poorly attended fish retailer's stock tanks) then an overwhelming infection may result.

 

What fish are susceptible?

  • Cyprinids and cyprinodonts in general, including

      Cyprinids.
    • Giant Danio - Danio malabaricus
    • Guppies - lebistes reticulatus
    • Golden Carp - Cyprinus carpio
    • Goldfish - carassius autatus
    • Pike-perch - Lucioperca sandra
    • White cloud mountain minnow - Tanichthys albonubes
      Cyprinodonts
    • Sword-tails - Xiphophorus helleri
  • Tetras in general, including
    • Black Widows - Gymnocorymbus ternetzi
    • Neon Tetra - Hyphessobrycon innesi
  • Anabantids in general, including
    • Mosaic Gourami - trichogaster leeri
    • Paradise Fish - Macropodus opercularus
    • Honey Gourami - Colisa sota
    • Dwarf Gourami - Colisa lalia
  • Cichlids, including:
    • Fire-Mouth Cichlid - Cichlasoma meeki
    • Ramirez' Dwarf Cichlid - Apistograma ramirezi
    • Egyptian Mouth-Brooder - Haplochromis multicolor
    • Angel Fish - Pterophyllum sp
  • Various other species:
    • European Catfish - siluris glanis

Clearly - this is not an exhaustive list and a list if immune fish is not possible, but it should give an idea of the problems you may face! It is compiled partly from my own experiences and partly from the books I possess. The sheer variety of fishes which can succumb surprised me as I was expecting Cyprinids, Tetras and Anabantids - all 3 genera appear particularly sensitive.

I suppose that, looking at the range of names of the causal bacteria, one might get a clue as to the species of fish involved. However a single outbreak will presumably be one bacterium species only so might be expected not to affect all fish. Van Duijn gives significant detail on the various bacteria and the fish species they infect.

Marine fishes are not immune, neither are frogs, caymans, tortoises and other cold-blooded animals, but there are different strains of bacteria involved.

Logic would indicate that carnivorous fishes are likely to be somewhat immune - after all they are going to eat in the wild, infected fish and would be the first to succumb therefore, so one could expect natural immunity.

 

Cures and treatment

Effectively, there is no sensible cure. The only way to cure the infected aquarium is to immediately remove infected fish as soon as they show any symptoms. Ideally all other susceptible fish should also be removed.

Van Duijn cites cases where treatment of the open wounds with penicillin ointment have effected a cure. As the disease is bacterial, antibiotics should work, but in general these are only available on veterinary prescription and injection of infected fish may be required, so such cures are hardly useful,to the average aquarium keeper.

Sterba says that the spread of the disease can be hindered by:

  • Good husbandry and a varied diet can prevent acute symptoms, even in infected fish.
  • All fish with external signs must be removed immediately and killed: never use them for breeding.
  • Fish which have shared a tank with an infected one should not be given away or sold but should be isolated and carefully looked after.
  • In breeding tanks, diseased stocks must be destroyed and the tank disinfected with 1:1000 potassium permanganate solution

 

Can Fish TB affect humans?

Most of the info you will find on the www seems to indicate that fish TB can infect humans. However - most of this info refers to the marine disease, caused by Myobacterium marinum.

In Freshwater fish, the disease has different causal bacteria and both of the books I have indicate that these are not dangerous to humans and that these bacteria are generally only dangerous in cold-blooded organisms, so trouble in humans would seem to be less likely with the freshwater varieties.

However - there are lots of different organisms that cause fish t.b. and I have heard reports of some people being infected by freshwater varieties, so it may be rare but not, it seems, impossible!

It seems that human infection comes via cuts and skin abrasions.

Tropical fish-keeping is so common, and fish TB so common, that surely if there were high danger, freshwater fish TB would be much better investigated and not the cause of mystery deaths that it quite clearly is! However human affairs don't always follow that logic!

 

How can I avoid such infections in my fish?

Buy fish only from reputable dealers. Carefully inspect all the tanks of the dealers - if there are any significant quantity dead or sick looking fish, avoid the dealer entirely (unless the sick fish are clearly quarantined and being looked after). A good dealer will remove any sick or dead specimens immediately. If left in the show tank, it's a clear indication of bad husbandry, for dead bodies get eaten by other inhabitants, and this is a sure way of spreading infection. I recently (28th March 2003) visited one fish dealer and saw several of their 90 odd tanks where there were dead fish. Some corpses were fresh: others had decayed/been eaten and some were simply skeletons. Several tanks had 4 or five such corpses. Clearly such a dealer should be avoided.

I did engage this dealer in a long discussion about their tanks and TB and he said that he hadn't cleaned the tanks that morning (how many days does it take a dead fish to decompose to become a mere skeleton?) and that you had to multiply the normal fish death-rate by 90 as he has that number of tanks. Are his young fish in such a poor state that he expects any significant death rate? If so - he should change his supplier!

Talk to the dealer about diseases, particularly TB, and about their suppliers. Is the dealer interested and caring and aware of the problems? You have in this page a lot of background information. If your dealer is interested - you should now be able to teach him some things.

Unfortunately quarantining new fish is likely to be useless: infected fish may die many months after first being infected, so a quarantine of a few weeks will show nothing.

 

Can I introduce TB with live food.

Clearly, lacking any statistics, the obvious safe answer has to be 'yes'. However, my feeling is that it is not at all likely.

Consider the following:

  1. A pond full of daphnia is not likely to be populated with fish. Daphnia and fish mix well, but the fish always win!
  2. There are very many TB bacteria: types which infect crustacea (specifically daphnia) are unlikely to survive in fish. Daphnia is, after all, a natural fish food and evolution will have sorted out any tendency for dangerous organisms to be transmitted via the food chain
  3. Natural waters are far less densely populated than any fish dealer or aquarists tank, so conditions for spreading the disease are less favourable.
  4. TB bacteria will grow faster in a tropical tank at 25° than in native waters which are usually much colder.
  5. Fish fed on live food are likely to be in peak condition, so will be generally more resistant to disease.
  6. A healthy aquarium, like any closed ecosystem, must have lots of different organisms in balance for best health. Introducing live food from a local pond will introduce new bacteria, animals, worms etc which will all assist the biodiversity of your tank (as well as adding to its interest). Yes, try and use pond water from a source that does not contain fish: if there are no fish, there is virtually no chance that you will introduce disease or parasites.

But learn about pond life: if you, for instance, add dragon-fly larvae to your tank - they are carnivorous and will catch and eat very small fish. But if you have big fish - they are simply more and tasty fish-food. There are many small pond animals like this which can damage small fish but will be good food for larger fish!

 

Can I introduce TB with dried food.

I do not know the answer to this. However, look at the ingredients on a typical flake food: it contains all sorts of ingredients - many of which are fish-derived. If a sick fish did get used as an ingredient - well, bacteria are known to ne able to survive al sorts of harsh conditions and I dare say that processing as fish food might not kill them all.

Manufactured fish foods are after all wide-range: they are designed to feed a wide variety of fish, from vegetarian ones to carnivores. Not all fish eat the same diet naturally and food should ideally be matched to what the particular fish, in nature, would normally eat.

So transmission via flake food would, I anticipate, be a subject worth study! But it is far less likely than is infection from a fish shop: as we know TB can stay dormant in a fish for a long time.


Fish are friends not food...
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